I Have A Fuel Question

"Logansteno: Bought a VW?" (logansteno) 01/06/2015 at 13:50 • Filed to: None

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So the Fusion is rated at 240 horsepower, 270 pounds-feet of torque running regular 87 gas. Say we put premium 93 in it, would the power and torque figures increase? Or would we just be wasting money on more expensive gas for no performance increase?

Speaking of the car, it's at the dealer right now having the remote start fixed. We haven't the damnedest clue how long we'll be without it, so we better have a good loaner car.

Brian Silvestro > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 13:52

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Is that an Ecoboost engine? If so, premium is what you're supposed to be putting in it.

spanfucker retire bitch > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 13:53

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What Brian said. You aren't getting those numbers without putting Premium into the car, anyways. Those Turbo engines desire higher octane.

roflcopter > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 13:53

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I will spare you the details, but the short answer is no, you would not make any more power.

The only thing that higher octane fuel gives you is the ability to make more power, and unless a car is tuned to take advantage of this increase in knock resistance, then nothing will be gained.

davedave1111 > roflcopter 01/06/2015 at 13:55

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"unless a car is tuned to take advantage of this increase in knock resistance"

All ECUs have done that for at least a decade, haven't they?

SidewaysOnDirt still misses Bowie > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 13:57

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There would be a theoretical decrease, but you wouldn't see it. The octane has nothing to do with the power the gas can put out, it's just how spark-proof it is. You don't need high test unless you have a high compression or turbo motor that requires it, and even then, the reason is to prevent pre-detonation, not to produce more power.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Brian Silvestro 01/06/2015 at 13:58

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nope Ecoboost at least the normal non-performance oriented ones are tuned to run Regular 87.

now the SHO, STs, and Mustang Ecoboost, may be, and probably are different.

Steve in Manhattan > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 13:58

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The Car Guys said it often: premium is a waste of money for almost every car on the road. Even if it made more power, you probably wouldn't notice it.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Brian Silvestro 01/06/2015 at 13:59

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My parents made me extensively look to make sure it didn't need premium. Everything I read said regular.

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > spanfucker retire bitch 01/06/2015 at 14:00

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I swear up and down Ford said it only needed regular for those numbers. Maybe I'm hallucinating.

Axel-Ripper > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:00

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Yes, your modern car will make more power on premium than on 87. To make it short, the ECU continually optimizes fuel and spark strategy to give the best available engine power and efficiency at all times, and higher octane allows it to get closer to its "optimal" tables. Chances are the "optimal" max spark tables are calibrated on something crazy like GT260 unleaded, and it scalars from there down to junk 85 octane just in case someone isn't paying attention when they fill it (or are an idiot).

Brian Silvestro > HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles 01/06/2015 at 14:02

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Upon further research we are both kind of right

If you put premium in the 2.0T Fusion, you will get 240hp, but Ford recommends 87. Either can be used, but premium is the thing that gets 240hp.

JQJ213- Now With An Extra Cylinder! > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:02

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ok I know it's not the same but our 2012 Sup T5 (turbo 5) specifically says to run regular 87... So I'm sure the Ford is the same... Especially if you read it like that

I don't think you'll get any better performance. These New engines are made to run on almost whatever you give them...

Brian Silvestro > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:02

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Upon further research, either fuel can be used.

But if you want 240HP, you have to use premium

http://www.ford.com/cars/fusion/sp…

Logansteno: Bought a VW? > Brian Silvestro 01/06/2015 at 14:04

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Oh, well for an extra 9 horsepower, I don't think it'd be worth the price increase for 93. That answers that question.

roflcopter > davedave1111 01/06/2015 at 14:09

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Well, I would more aptly say that the ECUs are tuned to pull some timing when a lower grade of fuel is put into them than say that they put more in when a higher one is. If it is recommended to put 89 in a car, that's the way they meant for it to be run and putting 87 in would cause it to detune a bit, but putting 93 in wouldn't make it turn up the heat any.

sefeing, actually bought an E46 > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:11

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Same deal with my Focus ST. Same EcoBoost. The car can take 87 no problem, but you won't get those output figures without 93.

Sethersm > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:12

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"Say we put premium 93 in it, would the power and torque figures increase? Or would we just be wasting money on more expensive gas for no performance increase?"

The correct answer to those questions is "Yes". It is theoretically possible to create more power if the ECU is able to "tune" to the higher octane by advancing the timing slightly. Will it do it? My guess is probably not and as such, you'd be wasting money.

I do however know a guy who does get better mileage (has the numbers to back it up) using mid-grade in his low-grade spec car. He can actually save just a tiny bit of money by using mid-grade. I don't recall what vehicle he has though.

You could of course run a long term experiment. Fill with low-grade and keep meticulous records of your mileage for a few months. Then switch to mid-grade and again keep meticulous records of your mileage for a few months. Finally, switch to high-grade and keep meticulous records. You will of course need to eliminate any non-standard driving you may do in each case, like if you take a 4000 mile all highway journey, you'd need to toss out the data for that journey. An increase in mileage could indicate the engine is making more power.

Lastly, as others have said, even if you do get a boost, it will be mild. You'd be unlikely to notice it when doing everyday driving. You might notice it on the track where your performance is measured by timing and whatnot, but it isn't going to be huge. Driver errors, like not maintaining a consistent line from lap to lap, would likely erase any benefit.

davedave1111 > roflcopter 01/06/2015 at 14:15

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As far as I know, they just advance the timing until the knock sensor detects knock, and then wind it back slightly. I can't imagine any car where the engine is so fragile that the extra power would cause damage, so I'd expect that to be the same on any car.

deekster_caddy > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:17

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It all depends how the original timing tables were laid out. If they are a bit aggressive and the engine is fully reliant on the knock sensor to keep the engine 'safe', then you might see an extra 3 or 4 hp by using a higher octane fuel, because it can run the full programmed timing. But mostly you won't see any difference.

If the car is "rated" for 87 octane in the books, then they probably made the timing tables "safe" and it won't make any difference at all. Only connecting a live scan tool that can read knock sensor activity and timing retard (often referred to as Knock Retard or KR) will tell you if you may benefit from higher octane fuel.

In my old Yukon it would have a few degrees of KR running 87 octane under certain conditions. I reprogrammed the timing tables so it was 'safe' for 87 and if I was towing anything 89 kept it KR-free. But that's not necessary for most vehicles.

What I don't like about relying heavily on the knock sensor (which many vehicles do) is that on low octane the sensor is constantly detecting and correcting for a teeny bit of pinging, which over time (100,000 + miles) can mean it needs an early head gasket... I've found many many GM cars call for 87 but have a little knock unless you run 89. I'm not sure how Ford handles their programming.

tl;dr - Find someone local with a scan tool, go for a drive and see if you have any "KR". If so, try 89 octane and see if it goes away.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > spanfucker retire bitch 01/06/2015 at 14:19

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If it's direct injection it doesn't need it, since the fuel is injected directly into the cylinder at the last moment (as opposed to multiport injection, where the injector is behind the valve and therefore can only work while the valve is open).

However this also means that no additional octane will help you, as the solution to preventing knocking the fact that there is no fuel in the cylinder during compression rather than higher octane.

Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:19

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You would be wasting money.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:23

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I use 91, if your car is designed to use up to 93, using 87 will lower your overall mpg to the point it's most likely a draw. The only reason I use 91 is it is the easiest high grade to find (and I get mad points for superstore), I have 94 down the road but then I'd need another points card and I don't feel like it.

Sir_Stig: and toxic masculinity ruins the party again. > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:25

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My Fiesta ST also says 87 is all you need, but that 93 is required for the rated hp and torque.

Nibbles > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:26

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Check your manual. If it gives different ratings for different fuels (nearly every forced induction vehicle does these days) then yes. In essence, you're getting retard and diminished boost when running regular; full power available with premium. If your Fusion isn't an EcoBoost then disregard this message in its entirety - regular is what it was designed for.

Nibbles > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:28

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The price differential may be negligible. My S40 T5 returns 230hp and 28mpg on premium, 210hp and 23mpg on regular. The extra empeegees make up for the price at the pump.

spanfucker retire bitch > Smallbear wants a modern Syclone, local Maple Leafs spammer 01/06/2015 at 14:31

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Ford still recommends premium. I'm just telling you what the manufacturer wants. You'll have less power and your fuel economy will suffer if you don't premium fuel.

spanfucker retire bitch > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:32

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It'll run fine on regular. But if you want the HP/TQ ratings, as well as the fuel economy ratings that your car is rated for, you'll need premium fuel. At least 91. Thanks to California most cars when they ask for Premium really just mean 91.

With the exception of some high-end sports cars of course.

HammerheadFistpunch > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 14:37

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I think you've got your answer here, but as an experiment you may want to try running both for economy sake. The EB engines are much more sophisticated FI engines compared to what I have been used to but my experience is that when its really cold, using mid grade on my premium only FI cars and truck return better mileage without detonation. I'm not sure if its complicated like formulation or if its simply because the intake temps are so much lower as to reduce the risk of detonation to near zero and that running more resistant to detonation fuel burns less completely. Worth a shot at the very least.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 15:07

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Short answer. No.

Long answer. It depends on how the ECU is programmed. Normally the program is designed for 91 AKI + and detunes if 89 or 87 is used. Most ECUs which are in a car that says "91+ AKI required" or "Premium Unleaded Fuel Required" will detune. That's changed in the last few years to "Premium Unleaded Fuel Recommended for Maximum Performance" on some cars.

Takeaway: Use the recommended fuel in the manual. If it says 87 AKI recommended, use 87. If it says 91+, use 91 plus. You won't destroy your engine if it says 91+ and you use 89 or 87, but you will have a slight decrease in output.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Axel-Ripper 01/06/2015 at 15:10

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That Sunoco 260GTX is expensive... goes between $8-10/gallon.

Axel-Ripper > KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs 01/06/2015 at 15:12

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Yeah, it is unbelievably expensive, but it is what OEM's use a lot for their super high octane stuff because it is almost impossible to make knock.

KusabiSensei - Captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs > Axel-Ripper 01/06/2015 at 15:35

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I've used it in my S4 track car (APB 2.7T) and as long as you have an ECU program to take advantage of the fuel characteristics (I do), it is a beautiful thing.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > Brian Silvestro 01/06/2015 at 17:09

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hmm make since I suppose.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Logansteno: Bought a VW? 01/06/2015 at 18:26

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It doesn't *need* premium, but it does make use of premium up to a point:

http://www.fordfusionforum.com/topic/12770-93…

Having said this, the time it will make use of premium the most is in hot weather or if you're pushing the car driving up a mountain or something like that.

It also depends on how you drive. Drive the car hard and you'll get more benefit from premium.

If you're taking it easy and not dipping into the boost much or at all, then premium offers little or no benefit.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > davedave1111 01/07/2015 at 00:52

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To an extent. The long term use of lower than recommended fuel does raise questions. There was an article 5 years ago during carpocalyspe on how dealers were looking into leased cars returning and questioning what happens to a Lexus, BMW, etc is run on 87 when recommending or requiring premium. They wre getting cars that were supposed to run on premium returned and plugging in the OBD and seeing all these error codes. This was something they never thought of assuming anyone who can buy a 50k car, can afford the upkeep.

The ECU can only adjust so much.